Sgwrs Wicipedia:Y Cymhorthydd Cyfieithu

Symudwyd i'r Caffi gan Defnyddiwr:Llywelyn2000 10 Awst 2015.

Hello, Content Translation has now been enabled as an opt-in beta feature on the Welsh Wikipedia. To start translating:

1. Please enable the Beta feature in your preferences and check the box for Content Translation.
2. Visit the page Special:ContentTranslation or to your contributions page to open the tool.
3. Click on the blue button to create a new translation.
4. A dialog will be displayed. In the From section select the language of the original article and the article name, and the language you would like to translate to. Also add the title of the new article (or the original title will be inserted) and click on Translate to begin. Your language preferences will be remembered for the next time.
5. You will see a screen consisting of three columns. The left column contains the text of the source language and the middle column is for the translated text. Using the right column you can perform several actions such as insert source text, remove the inserted text source text, add or remove links etc.
6. After you translate the article, you can publish it directly as a new page on the Welsh Wikipedia by using the publish button that appears. In case the article gets created by another user while you were translating, you will see an option to save the newly published translation under your user namespace.
7. The number of published pages can be seen on the Content Translation stats page.

Since, this is the first time we have installed the tool on this Wikipedia, there are chances that there may be some problems or service disruptions which we are not yet aware of. We will be monitoring the usage to check for any failures or issues, but please do let us know on the Content Translation talk page or through Phabricator if you spot any problems that prevent you from using the tool. For more information, please read the information available in the User Guide. You can also view a short screencast on how to use Content Translation. Our announcement is written only in English, and we would really appreciate if this message can be translated to reach more users of this Wikipedia. Thank you.--Runab WMF (sgwrs) 15:53, 9 Mehefin 2015 (UTC)

Dyw'r cyfieithydd ddim ymlaen eto! Gweler y sgwrs yma. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 08:47, 10 Mehefin 2015 (UTC)

Bobl annwyl - mwy o drafferth nag o werth!AlwynapHuw (sgwrs) 22:41, 20 Mehefin 2015 (UTC)

Ydy. Fodd bynnag, fe weli eu bont yn gweithio arno yn fama ("@Pginer-WMF Just checked with upstream. Only Welsh->English is available. It isn't bidirectional.") Mae'r ddolen rois uchod hefyd yn dangos hynny. Mam inni yw amynedd! ;-) Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 07:35, 21 Mehefin 2015 (UTC)

Mae 'na rywbeth barus, braidd, bod y cyfieithydd yn gweithio i gyfieithu'r ychydig erthyglau sy'n bodoli yn y Gymraeg ond nid y Saesneg, ond dim yn gweithio i gyfieithu’r miliynau o erthyglau Saesneg sy' ddim ar gael yn y Gymraeg eto! Rwy'n teimlo'n anghynnes bod gan yr ychydig erthyglau sydd ar gael yn y Gymraeg yn unig ddolen "Ieithoedd eraill: English" sy'n arwain at y cyfieithydd. Byddwn yn tybied mae'r cyfieithydd gorau byddai un o "Simple English" I ieithoedd llai eu defnydd, yn bennaf gan fo gan y peiriannau llai o drafferth efo cyfieithu iaith syml! AlwynapHuw (sgwrs) 04:58, 20 Gorffennaf 2015 (UTC)

Be fasa'n braf fyddai ateb ganddyn nhw! Gweler yma. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 05:11, 20 Gorffennaf 2015 (UTC)

Ar ôl defnyddio Content Translation i gyfieithu sawl erthygl, dw i'n credu ei fod yn well nag y tybiwch. Mae eisioes wedi bod mwy na 2,000 o erthyglau sydd wedi cael eu cyfieithu i'r Gatalaneg- o gymharu â 9 erthygl i'r Gymraeg: mae 9 erthygl yn y broses o gael eu cyfieithu i'r Wyddeleg ar y funud hon! Bob awr, mae erthygl newydd yn cael ei cyfieithu i'r Gaeleg. Rydym ar ei hôl hi. Sy234sn (sgwrs) 14:21, 9 Awst 2015 (UTC)

@Sy234sn: Ti wedi defnyddio'r Golygydd Gweladwy / Content Translation yn Gymraeg? Dw i ddim yn meddwl! Dolen os gweli di'n dda. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 05:07, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

@Runab WMF): I am annoyed by your translation tool, it appears to be a grabbing imperialistic tool to take from smaller sites, without offering a return. I have made a commitment to Wicipedia Cymraeg to write a short biography of at least 4 paragraphs about EVERY Welsh MP since 1832. I have written about 400 so far, many of whom are stubs or non-existent in English. The translation tool allows you to take these from Wicipedia's few thousand pages and add them to Wikipedia's millions of pages, but doesn't allow me to translate from English into Welsh! It's an abuse of smaller Wikipedia sites. I have a list of another 1000 MP's to write about for Wicipedia, but I'm loathe to write them when a pickup tool will use them in English without offering a return for the Welsh language! Defnyddiwr:AlwynapHuw

@Runab WMF: I'm also dissapointed in this. We've left messages to this affect, and no one has bothered to answer / give reasons why it does not work. I suggest you take it off cywiki. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 05:05, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

OK I have found this page which informs me that 9 articles have been created with the new tool. The Sarah Palin page however is full of mistakes; I corrected two paragraphs. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 05:37, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

I've just tested the CTranslator and it does NOT work. This is what I get:

which means that no other person could have created those 9 artciles with the tool. Or am I missing something? Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 05:52, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

@AlwynapHuw: Symudwyd y canlynol o Sgwrs Defnyddiwr:Runab WMF i fama gan Defnyddiwr:Llywelyn:

(moved from Sgwrs Defnyddiwr:Runab WMF by Llywelyn2000:

Hi, David doesn't work on the Content Translation tool. He is with the VE team. I am sorry that we did not respond earlier to the conversation. For some reason, it escaped our attention. I could not understand all of it as don't know Welsh (none of us on the team do). However, I could figure out that there is a confusion about the automatic translation from English to Welsh. Unfortunately, at this point of time we only have Apertium as the machine translation system and it does not support MT for Welsh. Apertium allows us to support very limited number of language pairs (20 unique languages, making ~45 pairs). I believe someone else from the Welsh Wikipedia had asked a similar question on the project talk page. We would love to support Moses, but unfortunately, at the moment we don't have the expertise in the team to do so. I had requested in that thread if we could connect with any volunteers/team with whom we could on this. I would like to reiterate the same request again. Not just Welsh, a number of other languages are currently without machine translation and we are fully dependent on Apertium for this feature. To mitigate this, we are constantly improving the features that would allow languages without MT to translate better (like improvements to link adaptation). Please do let us know how else we can be of assistance. Thanks.--Runab WMF (sgwrs) 12:00, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks for this, I've Tweeted Canolfan Bedwyr with a request for them (and Defnyddiwr:Dafyddt?) might now take over this project. Sad news that David Chan isn't able to finish what he started. I also find it very odd that Defnyddiwr:Sy234sn above mentions that he has created several articles using CT; the CT software also lists 7! Lastly, without CT enabled to actually translate, my view is that it should be taken off cywiki, until all is finished, as it has caused much negativity. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 13:37, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

I've no experience of Moses or Apertium unfortunately. I could look at it sometime but probably not at the moment Dafyddt (sgwrs)

Doeddwn i ddim yn siarad am yr offeryn cyfieithu peirianyddol, falle dylwn i wedi bod yn gliriach. Roeddwn yn cyfeirio at y ffaith bod y Cymhorthydd Cyfieithu yn symleiddio'r broses o gyfieithu erthyglau o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg, felly nid wyf am gael gwared â CT. Ymddiheuraf am y camgymeriadau esgeulus yn yr erthygl Sarah Palin, dylwn i wedi gwirio fe cyn ei gyhoeddi. Sy234sn (sgwrs) 22:49, 10 Awst 2015 (UTC)

Dydy'r cyfieithydd ddim yn symleiddio cyfieithu o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg, mae'n ail adrodd y Saesneg, does dim cyfieithiad Cymraeg ar gael. Yr hyn sy'n fy mhechu yw bod pwyso'r botwm cyfieithu yn creu cyfieithiad o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg (cyfieithiad Google Translate) ond nid o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg. Cyfieithiad cac, ond cyfieithiad gellir gweithio arni. Mae Google Translate YN gallu creu cyfieithiad gweithredol o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg hefyd, rwy'n ei ddefnyddio'n aml i greu sgerbwd erthygl ar Wicipedia
Defnyddiwch y cyfieithydd ar Wicipedia i geisio cyfieithu Evan Rowland Jones cewch bras gyfieithiad i'r fain, ceisiwch ddefnyddio'r cyfieithydd ar Wikepedia Saeneg i'r Gymraeg ar gyfer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Addams_Williams - dydi o ddim yn gweithio! Sydd tu hwnt i'm ddirnad i - sut bod peiriant sy'n gweithio'r naill ffordd a'r llall, yn rhydd, yn farus gweithio tuag at y Saesneg yn unig ar Wikipedia? AlwynapHuw (sgwrs) 04:07, 13 Awst 2015 (UTC)

Sy234sn - Dyma ddywedist ti (uchod): 'Ar ôl defnyddio Content Translation i gyfieithu sawl erthygl, dw i'n credu ei fod yn well nag y tybiwch.' Rwan ti'n dweud: 'Doeddwn i ddim yn siarad am yr offeryn cyfieithu peirianyddol...' Onid CT ydy'r 'offeryn cyfieithu peirianyddol'?

AlwynapHuw - Dydy'r cyfieithydd ddim yn symleiddio cyfieithu o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg; cytuno. Ond mae'r hyn welsom ni yn Hacio'r Iaith / Trwy Ddulliau Chwyldro (gan Dafydd Chan ar Skype) yn feddalwedd da. Nid fy mlaenoriaeth i'n bersonol, ond yn sicr yn haeddu ei le. Ysywaeth, nid dyma a gafwyd. Un ffordd mae'n gweithio, gan mai dyna sydd wedi ei greu hyd yma gan gymuned Apertium (meddalwedd cod agored) sy'n cael ei defnyddio gan y Cymhorthydd Cyf. Be mae Defnyddiwr:Runab WMF (uchod) yn ei ddweud ydy fod 2 ddewis: naill ai i ni weithio ar Apertiwm i'w wneud o weithio'r ddwy ffordd NEU 2. i ni weithio ar Moses gyda nhw, fel bod y Cym Cyf yn derbyn meddalwedd Moses yn ogystal ag Aperiwm.

Dw i wedi ebostio Canolfan Bedwyr, gan mai Moses mae nhw'n ei ddefnyddio gan ofyn iddyn nhw gynorthwyo i alluogi CymCyf i dderbyn Moses. Dyma ddywed Dewi Jones: 'Dydy o (Dafydd Chan) ddim wedi ein argyhoeddi o alluon Cymraeg Aperium ac mae'n awyddus y bydd ein system ni (sydd ar gael yn cod agored o'r Porth Technolegau Iaith) ar gael o fewn y Content Editor. Byddem yn ei helpu gorau gallwn ni i wireddu hyn. Fel arall, Google Translate Cymraeg a Microsoft Bing bydd y peiriannau o ddewis iddynt.' Dywed hefyd: 'Pan fyddaf yn ól yn y swyddfa, byddaf yn parhau gyda'r project seilwaith cyfarthebu - gweler: http://www.bangor.ac.uk/news/diweddaraf/seilwaith-cyfathrebu-cymraeg-%2023598 . Dwi'n awyddus i'r project yma helpu'r nifer gorau o projectau cod agored yn ogystal a Wikimedia a'r Wicipedia Cymraeg. Efallai byddai'n syniad cael sgwrs ym mis Medi/Hydref?' Ar ben hyn, deallaf gan Lywodraeth Cymru fod y gwaith hwn (naill ai weithio ar Aperium neu Moses) o fewn gorchwyl gwaith Canolfan Bedwyr. Rhywsut felly (drwy drafodaeth) a gwaith caled, down allan o'r anialwch! Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 06:25, 13 Awst 2015 (UTC)

Checking for en -> cy MT for Content Translation

Hello,

I had written this message earlier in Llywelyn2000’s talk page, but then I realized it may be more appropriate here. As I understand, machine translation support for English to Welsh was discussed in the recent Community Wishlist Survey. While it is unfortunate that we currently are unable to support Apertium for Welsh translations (missing from main project), we have been adding many features that have been used by editors even when machine translation is not available. However, we have recently added another machine translation system - Yandex, for Russian, and English to Welsh is supported in this tool. Unfortunately, no one in the team can understand Welsh and hence we could not figure out if the quality of the translated content is usable. I wanted to let you know about this option and check if the Welsh community would consider using it while Apertium can work out a way to provide support for English to Welsh as well. You can read more about this MT system in this page. Thank you.--Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (sgwrs) 12:31, 15 Rhagfyr 2015 (UTC)

@Runab WMF: diolch Runa; many thanks! No one from your team can speak Welsh; no one from our team understands Yandex. Can something be done to move both mountains closer together? Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 14:12, 16 Rhagfyr 2015 (UTC)

Sure :). If you could perhaps go to https://translate.yandex.com and try translating something between English to Welsh to see if would serve the purpose for now? The technical implementation is pretty simple and only needs a small configuration switch. Yandex is a service similar to Google Translate and offers machine translation between many language pairs. I would recommend that you do read this page for more details and let us know if there are any specific questions. Thanks. --Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (sgwrs) 16:03, 16 Rhagfyr 2015 (UTC)

Hello Llywelyn2000, sorry for not following up on this earlier. Did you by any chance manage to use the online Yandex translation tool from English to Welsh? I will happy to help you in case you are facing any difficulty with it. Thanks.--Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (sgwrs) 14:57, 18 Ionawr 2016 (UTC)

@Runab WMF, Llywelyn2000: Sorry for not answering earlier; family illness. I've compared yandex with Google translate. Google Translate seems better, but is also full of mistakes. Many thanks. '''Defnyddiwr:John Jones''' (sgwrs) 20:19, 6 Chwefror 2016 (UTC)

Ouch! Sorry to hear that Llywelyn2000. Hope things are well now and my apologies for the late reply. So what I can understand from your comment is that both Yandex and Google Translate are not optimal for English to Welsh machine translation, and between the two the latter is marginally better. Unfortunately, Google Translate is not in the immediate plans, and Yandex is the only MT system we currently have that supports English to Welsh translations. Thanks.--Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (sgwrs) 07:55, 22 Chwefror 2016 (UTC)